[rabbitmq-discuss] One Producer, X Consumers where X can change

Fri Jan 11 11:37:25 GMT 2013

Hi

On 01/10/2013 06:22 PM, Shadowalker wrote:
> Hi,
> I need to find a solution to a problem of mine and I thought there 
> might be one within rabbitmq so here it is :
> I have a manager that, when requested to delete an element from its 
> DB, needs to notify all other elements that reference the element it 
> needs to delete also no logner reference it.
>
> The main idea to keep in mind is that those references that need be 
> removed are not necessarily stored in the same DB (nor same server) as 
> the initial manager.
>
> So I thought I could use a queue to notify that references to the 
> element I want to delete need to be removed. And all element that 
> could have a reference to that type of element are set to listen on 
> that queue.
>

That's fine, but remember that queues will deliver messages in a 
round-robin fashion when there are multiple consumers. What you'd need 
for this is a pub-sub model, so a fanout exchange and multiple temporary 
(exclusive, auto-delete) queues would be the canonical approach. See 
http://www.rabbitmq.com/tutorials/tutorial-three-python.html for example.

> What I'd like to know now is whether I can configure my manager to 
> wait for a return "from the queue" (or something else) to be notified 
> that all references have been removed.
>

This is a very different problem to notifying all the consumers. If you 
have N consumers and you want to wait for N replies that the reference 
has been deleted/cleared, how do you know the value of N in the manager? 
Without knowing the value of N, there's no way to implement this with 
queues or otherwise.

> say
> Manager sends a message to queue Q1.
> I can have 1,2,3,more other managers listening on Q1.
>
> Each of them would consume the message and once all of them have 
> consumed the message
> I would either send directly a notification to the first manager, or 
> create a entry in a queue that the manager listens on so that he would 
> be notified that it can delete the element.
>
>
> Is there anyway to do this ?

Yes, you can set up as many queues and bindings, backwards and forwards 
between the various publishers and receivers as you like. But what 
you've described doesn't seem to address the requirement you stated above.

> Note : the fact that the complete removal of the element is not 
> immediate is not an issue ( ex: I can ask for deletion a 11:00 and the 
> deletion be effective at 13:00)
> Note2 : I've seen the documentation about RPC calls but this is not 
> really what I'm looking for and if avoidable, I'll rather do so.

Well, what you're describing is *inherently* an RPC call from the way 
you've described it. Of course the 'manager' sending a "Release Ref#1" 
message might need to get on with other work whilst waiting for the 
replies to come in, so you'd have a pretty interesting topology here.

Firstly, the manager who sends the 'release' notification needs to know 
how many replies to expect. In order to know this, the manager needs to 
*first* receive a message to 'acquire' the resource for each 
participant. Because the manager responsible for releasing also needs to 
know about acquisition, I'm going to refer to this manager as the 
'master' node from now on. Once the master knows about all the acquired 
references, when it is time to release the resource the manager can 
transmit a release notification to a fanout exchange as I described 
earlier. Then the master waits on *another* queue for replies from all 
the participants holding a reference to say they've released it.

participant(s) => res.acquire [direct-exchange]   => master
participant(s) <= res.release [fanout-exchange] <= master
participant(s) => res.released_ok                        => master

Of course there are some things missing from this topology. For the 
participants to deal robustly with their references, they might need to 
wait for the master to respond that it has accepted their 'acquire' 
request, otherwise what if the master was down? Secondly, and this is 
*most* important, the master has no way to *know* if one of the 
participants crashes or if the network between the broker and the 
clients goes down. This means that that master could get stuck forever 
waiting for the 'released_ok' message from that participant. Even if the 
master wasn't blocking on those replies, it would still not correctly 
release the resource because one (or more) replies was missing. The AMQP 
protocol doesn't provide any primitives for a connected client to know 
about the state of other connected clients.

The problem you're describing, distributed resource management (e.g., 
locking or reference counting) is a fairly complex one. I'm not entirely 
convinced that a messaging based solution is the right fit for your 
needs by itself. You could, of course, design a solution using AMQP as 
the communication protocol between nodes, but there would need to be a 
significant amount of software running on each node to handle things 
like member(ship) state in the connected graph as well.

It sounds to me like a distributed database would be a *much* more 
natural fit to what you're doing. Another approach would be to soft 
delete the element initially, then only hard delete it once you've seen 
all the replies. This is a half-and-half solution that doesn't assume 
the master is able to know about crashing or disconnecting clients on 
other nodes. If you get into a situation where a node N1 that held a 
lock/reference dies and becomes unrecoverable (i.e., hdd crashed and 
database for the node is lost) then an administrator could then go into 
the database and perform the hard delete providing the lock-count has 
decremented to [N1] and thus we know no other locks/references exist.

I hope I haven't put you off using Rabbit, but I hope I have pointed out 
the many general pitfalls in trying to manage distributed locks. Feel 
free to push back with any further questions.

Cheers,
Tim