<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>I'm not a big fan of forcing the message broker to keep fascist control over<span> message ordering. Spring Integration has great tools for handling splitting and aggregation that can do this message ordering for you, which means your message broker situation can be much more flexible.<br><br>In this particular case, the only way to guarantee you won't receive new messages before you've finished sending them the old ones is to suspend message delivery of new messages to the newly-bound queue until it is finished sending the old ones. One would have to literally queue requests to route messages internally (to the exchange). The problem is that exchanges are stateless. One would have to actually store new message routing requests in mnesia or something based on whether or not the currently-being-filled queue has a new routing request pending.<br><br>All that said, it's technically possible to implement this kind of behaviour in the broker. I'm just not sure it would be a good idea. :) Messaging applications are, after all, supposed to be "A"synchronous, which means, necessarily, undetermined ordering. If ordering is really that important, then you don't want a message broker, you want a datastore and a cursor of some sort to sequentially process ordered items. You need, in fact, a datastore just like the one I'm currently proof-of-concepting (is that a word? ;) in my spare time, which is an asynchronous datastore that mixes messaging and data storage to achieve very closely to what you're wanting here. ;)<br><span name="x"></span><br>Thanks!<br><br>Jon Brisbin<br>http//jbrisbin.com<br><span name="x"></span><br></span><br><hr id="zwchr"><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><b>From: </b>"Simone Busoli" <Simone.Busoli@ferrari.com><br><b>To: </b>rabbitmq-discuss@lists.rabbitmq.com<br><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 1, 2011 10:15:26 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [rabbitmq-discuss] How to handle full exchange history delivery<br><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Thanks Jon, I misunderstood you probably.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">WRT this:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="color: black;" lang="EN-US">When I was writing it, I thought it would be really easy to, when a new queue is bound to this exchange, go fetch all the messages in that bucket and send them to the queue.</span></i><i><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">I’m not sure it is, that was my main question actually. How do you figure out how to join the messages stored in the bucket and those arriving live so that the last message you send to the queue
from those picked up from the bucket is followed exactly by its logical successor from those coming live?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Say I have messages 1..100 being published to the exchange, each time one arrives it’s stored. The exchange has received the first 50 messages and a client performs a binding of a queue to the exchange.
So you start pulling the messages from the storage and sending them to the queue before forwarding any live messages. While you are pulling them out of the storage messages 51..60 are published to the exchange, how do you deal with them? Do you always pull
from the storage? When do you stop pulling from the storage and relay to the queue directly what is being published to the exchange if you don’t know whether any new messages have arrived while you were pulling from the storage?</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">_______________________________________________________________</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Simone Busoli</span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;">Direzione risorse umane e segreteria generale</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;">– Sistemi informativi gestione sportiva
<br>
<i>Collaboratore</i></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Ferrari S.p.A. </span></b><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;">Via Ascari 55/57, 41053, Maranello (MO); Italy</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;" lang="DE">T</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;"> (+39) 0536-949.850</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;">E</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;">
<u><a href="mailto:simone.busoli@ferrari.com" target="_blank"><span style="color: blue;">simone.busoli@ferrari.com</span></a></u>
<u><a href="http://www.ferrari.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color: blue;">www.ferrari.com</span></a></u></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
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<div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";" lang="EN-US"> Jon Brisbin
[mailto:jon@jbrisbin.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 01, 2011 4:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Busoli, Simone<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rabbitmq-discuss@lists.rabbitmq.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rabbitmq-discuss] How to handle full exchange history delivery</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;" lang="EN-US">Maybe I wasn't being clear:<br>
<br>
I've already written a custom exchange that stores every message it receives in Riak (</span><span style="color: black;"><a href="http://wiki.basho.com/" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">http://wiki.basho.com/</span></a></span><span style="color: black;" lang="EN-US">). I'm
going to be talking about it next week at Erlang Factory in London, as a matter of fact. :)<br>
<br>
</span><span style="color: black;"><a href="https://github.com/jbrisbin/riak-exchange" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">https://github.com/jbrisbin/riak-exchange</span></a></span><span style="color: black;" lang="EN-US"><br>
<br>
When I was writing it, I thought it would be really easy to, when a new queue is bound to this exchange, go fetch all the messages in that bucket and send them to the queue.<br>
<br>
</span><span style="color: black;">Since I'm using Riak, the messages themselves are not all stored in memory.<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
Jon Brisbin<br>
http//jbrisbin.com<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="color: black;">
<hr id="zwchr" align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></div>
<blockquote style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(16, 16, 255); padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: "Helvetica","sans-serif"; color: black;">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family: "Helvetica","sans-serif"; color: black;">"Simone Busoli" <Simone.Busoli@ferrari.com><br>
<b>To: </b>rabbitmq-discuss@lists.rabbitmq.com<br>
<b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 1, 2011 8:43:58 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [rabbitmq-discuss] How to handle full exchange history delivery<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Helvetica","sans-serif"; color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">That’s what I thought as well, although I’m thinking about a couple of issues about it:</span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US"> </span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">·</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Lack of knowledge about Erlang, which is the language I’d have to use to build a custom exchange, I guess</span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">·</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">Amount of memory it would require to store the entire history in memory. It needn’t be in memory actually, but I’m not sure what would be the recommended way if the storage has to be carried out by exchange itself.
Mnesia perhaps, would it make sense?</span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________________</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">________</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Simone Busoli</span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;">Direzione risorse umane e segreteria generale</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;">– Sistemi informativi gestione sportiva
<br>
<i>Collaboratore</i></span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Ferrari S.p.A. </span></b><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;">Via Ascari 55/57, 41053, Maranello (MO); Italy</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;" lang="DE">T</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;"> (+39) 0536-949.850</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><br>
</span><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;">E</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: gray;">
<u><a href="mailto:simone.busoli@ferrari.com" target="_blank">simone.busoli@ferrari.com</a></u>
<u><a href="http://www.ferrari.com/" target="_blank">www.ferrari.com</a></u></span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-color: -moz-use-text-color;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: black;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: black;" lang="EN-US"> Jon Brisbin [mailto:jon@jbrisbin.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 01, 2011 3:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Busoli, Simone<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rabbitmq-discuss@lists.rabbitmq.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rabbitmq-discuss] How to handle full exchange history delivery</span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span style="color: black;">I've been seriously considering adding this functionality to the Riak-backed custom exchange. It was something I thought I would add first time through but didn't.<br>
<br>
You'd have to use a custom exchange. Not sure if that's an issue in your scenario or not.<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
Jon Brisbin<br>
http//jbrisbin.com</span></p>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><span style="color: black;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></div>
<blockquote style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; border-style: none none none solid; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(16, 16, 255);">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><span style="font-family: "Helvetica","sans-serif"; color: black;">From:
</span></b><span style="font-family: "Helvetica","sans-serif"; color: black;">"Simone Busoli" <Simone.Busoli@ferrari.com><br>
<b>To: </b>rabbitmq-discuss@lists.rabbitmq.com<br>
<b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 1, 2011 5:52:24 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[rabbitmq-discuss] How to handle full exchange history delivery<br>
<br>
</span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Hi,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;" lang="EN-US">I am trying to achieve a scenario in which messages are published from some data source into a RabbitMQ exchange and clients should be able to receive the full history of messages flown through that
exchange, regardless of the exact moment in time when they connect.</span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;" lang="EN-US"> </span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;" lang="EN-US">I’ve been thinking to solve it by setting up a proxy which subscribes to the exchange where messages are published using its own queue, keeps an internal storage of the messages and accepts requests
from clients. </span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;" lang="EN-US">When a request from a client arrives it just replays the full message history to the client by publishing the messages to the client queue (supplied in the ReplyTo field),
<b>then</b> binds the client queue to the messages exchange, so that the client from this moment onwards starts receiving the “live” messages, and is pretty much unaware of what’s happened; it simply just receives the whole history.</span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;" lang="EN-US"> </span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;" lang="EN-US">Now I am under the impression that there’s a fundamental flaw in this reasoning, since the proxy cannot know when the message history has completed and he can switch the client to the live stream,
because while it is replaying historical messages to the client other live messages might be arriving on the proxy’s queue, thus getting into an endless loop.</span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;" lang="EN-US"> </span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;" lang="EN-US">I’m probably missing something obvious, any advice about how others would approach this scenario is appreciated.</span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;" lang="EN-US"> </span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;" lang="EN-US">Simone</span><span style="color: black;"></span></p>
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